Self ordained insanity.
Over the past two decades of me practicing and studying Buddhism I have come across quite a few characters and interesting people. Some claim to know things and some claim to be things. Some are totally legitimate others not so much. In the past few years we have seen an increase in problems in certain Buddhist groups including money laundering, sexual assault, and outright brainwashing. One thing that seemed to be underlying all of this is a kind of dissatisfaction in what 'is/
So in the past few years I have spent a considerable amount of time reading and watching presentations of Buddhists and other meditators to really see and get into what the main questions that arise for meditators. I have read books, articles and watched many videos of Western Buddhists that I kind of place myself with. I am an ordained minister of Buddhism. Which has its own set of rules and guidelines taken from the vinaya (Buddhist monk’s rules). I started seeing a really odd pattern. I have worked closely with monks of all sects of Buddhism in a professional sense and as friends. I have come to understand the traditions and ceremonies and also understand the history and value of the pomp and circumstance of the Buddhist culture. In the west we are seeing Buddhism take hold and become recognized by the east. There is definite interest in how we are proceeding in the west and whether we are doing things right or just making it up as we go along. There is a very large ‘secular Buddhist’ following that is growing and pretty interesting. It seems to take out the ideas of mysticism and I have also seen a number of ‘New age’ Buddhists that seem to tweak the info to their liking and really do not follow any lineage of school, (Vajrayana, Theravada or Mahayana or Zen) Finally there is a small but popular group of folks that claim they are awakened or self ordained. That is what I want to focus on here.
Some have simply claimed that they were self ordained and started their own school, some have claimed they are the next Buddha (Mayatreya) and that they have the new info.. Some just teach a ‘more real’ down to earth Buddhism. That got me thinking… who are these people, why are they doing this and how are they succeeding.
My story.
I became interested in Buddhism through martial arts and television. My grandparents spent time in Japan, Guam and Hawaii after the war (WW2) and collected a small amount of art and knickknacks of Japanese origin. I was always attracted to them. I also was a kid in the 70s and watched a lot of Kung Fu with David Carradine and really that seemed to settle a need to know in my mind about this exotic practice of Buddhism and martial arts. Where I lived there was no big public library and there was no internet at the time so I was basically alone in my quest for knowledge. In my whole life I only knew two Asian kids and that was in High school. We became quick friends having Bruce Lee as a common interest. Later, in college I would go to the library and read and look up everything I could about martial arts and Buddhism… It was still a universe away as far as I knew. Later in university I began to have more connections as there was a larger Asian and Buddhist population in Southern California than in the foothills of the Sierras where I grew up. It was through perusing at a ‘new age’ bookstore in Pasadena (Alexandria II) that I came across a flyer for a Buddhist Meditation all day retreat, only $25… Lunch included. That sealed the deal. Not only learn Buddhist meditation from real monks but get lunch to boot, and all in just one day!
This was around 1995 or so, I went to the Rosemead Buddhist Monastery and met my now close friend Reverend Monty Edwards, (Dhammarichi), and his (soon to become my) teacher Venerable Chao Chu. That was a long time ago, I remember lunch and saying goodbye and meeting Ven. Chao Chu. He was exactly what I expected, bald, smiling and calm… he invited me back anytime to just sit and have tea… Of course this was like having a great master ask you to be his student in my mind.
A couple weeks later I took him up on the deal. At first I only went sporadically as I was in school to become a doctor and that took much of my time… I had read all that was available to me, the Three Pillars of Zen, Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, Mayumoto Musashi’s The book of five rings, Zen and the martial arts, Some Allan Watts, his biography at least and Siddhartha by Hermen Hesse, Beginner's mind by DT Suzuki, and a few others… That is all there really was at the time. There were a few more, but that is the core of it anyway. I was able to take many books from the lender library at the temple such as ‘What Buddhists Believe’, The Dhammapada, and a bunch more from Ajahn Sumedo, Narada, Walpola Rahula, Peter D. Santina, Ven. Ajahn Chah, and others.
I soaked all that up and started going to the Sunday meditation classes. It sucked. I could not sit to save my life. My mind would race, my back would hurt or I would fall asleep sitting up. Everything annoyed me or interrupted me when I tried to meditate. I would purposely sit in the back so that others would not be distracted by my fidgeting and falling asleep.
I started helping out around the temple where I could, mostly reaching things that were up high, I am 6’1” and everyone there was much shorter, or I helped with gardening and maintenance. I started hanging around the temple on Tuesdays and got to spend lots of one on one time with the abbot, Ven. Chao Chu. Our discussions were varied and wonderful. I started working on the temple publication ‘Common Sense’ and started writing monthly articles which I jokingly called “Tuesdays with Bhante” Bhante is the honorific term for teacher in the Theravada system.
A note about Chao Chu. He was born in SrI Lanka and became a novice monk at around 9 years old. Later became fully ordained like is common at around 18 to 20 years old. He then went on to study in Taiwan and re-ordained as a Mahayana monk, in the same sect as the Shao Lin monks. He then moved to the United states where his master teacher Venerable Shu Long had a temple in Highland Park, just outside of Los Angeles’ Chinatown. Thinking that the Chinese community would eventually spread East, the Mystic Dharma Temple in an old and very sturdy Christian Science Church seemed perfect. It was a huge place and in the front main hall was three statues easily over 20 feet high. That was in the early 1980s… Because of the odd politics and social stuff going on in Chinatown, people actually started to move further east to cities like Alhambra, Monterey Park and Rosemead… skipping over the largely Hispanic Highland Park and Boyle Heights area. The temple remained there with a devoted yet small following until the master’s death in 2010. I was the first to find the old master, still sitting up, he was 100 years old. That is another story.
I was a regular around the Rosemead Monastery between around 1999 to 2010 and met many visitors who all seemed to become close friends. Eventually I kind of became Bhante’s assistant, taking notes, driving him places, helping where I could. This soon became my preoccupation and full on hobby. In 2001 I began almost weekly sessions with Bhante just after 9/11. I remember going to him to see if he was ok, as all of the sudden anyone with brown skin from anywhere remotely east was an enemy of ‘Merica. I was worried some ignoramus would attack him or the temple so I went to help. When I arrived there, Bhante was sitting at the kitchen table cutting bumper stickers that were delivered. They had an American flag on one side and some quote like ‘America is the greatest’ or ‘These colors don’t run’ or something patriotic and very ‘American’ I cannot really remember. I simply sat down next to him and started cutting the flags away and stacking them and tossing the slogan in the trash bin. I eventually asked him what he was doing after helping him with around 50 of these things… “Monkeys don’t need ladders” was all he said and kept cutting. I know, it was cryptic and just what you would think a meditation master would say to you like some kind of koan or something (Koan is a Zen riddle with no common answer). After a while I started to ask him what he meant. I had only seen a couple monkeys in my life so far so had no real idea how they acted or what they were like to be around. He said ‘A monkey that wants to get on the roof just climbs up all by himself, he does not need any help.’ Ah, I said, having no idea what he was talking about…
After a little while of silence, he said to me…
“You have no idea what I am talking about, do you?”
Nope… no idea…
Well, just like monkeys, the ignorant people of the world do not need anything more to set them off and become angry, violent or even act out. They need no help to be dumber, just like the monkey, he needs no help getting on the roof, that’s what monkeys do.
That was I think my first hint at that eureka moment, that satori point that now I see takes place all the time…
In the time with Bhante I traveled the world with him, attended many conferences, meetings, interfaith things and all sorts of retreats, events and galas… Many times he would have to keep me back from people I thought were very interesting. He would tell me to be careful who gets my time, there are plenty of bad influences out there. Sometimes during a celebration or holiday ceremony different people would show up all decked out in robes and some even had an entourage. Most were welcomed and we sat together for tea and chatting, some were ignored because they were fakes or had bad interactions with others that we did not want to promote or be associated with.
Most of my trips were to either Thailand, Vietnam, or Sri Lanka for the United Nations day of Vesak conference. In that conference there was a topic and how the Buddhist world community would plan to or have contributed to it. Turns out, there are plenty of pseudo Buddhists and ‘masters’ out there that want their picture with genuine monks to up their ‘street cred’ with their own followers or potential donors. We had many run ins with people like that, I soon became hesitant to have my picture taken with anyone… I was often introduced as Dr. Thompson as I had finished my studies and being a tall white guy in minister's robes was a spectacle in most of the areas we traveled as many times I was one of very few non Asians in the crowd. I was a target for people to either get something like money or at least get closer to Bhante who was not only well connected but on many executive committees such as the UNDV, and others…
Being in Southern California we had many people stop by from temples and countries all over the place. Almost all were totally legitimate monks and nuns that were not only well respected but well known at least in the Chinese, Taiwanese, Thai, Sri Lankan, Burmese, Korean and Vietnamese Buddhist groups…
Every once in a while someone would show up at the temple that either I was to talk with to ‘waste their time’ until they left or they were told there was not time to meet them and send them on their way. Most as Bhante would put it ‘were just fooling around, not contributing’ basically being freeloaders or charlatans that wanted fame, money, a free ride, or something like that.
There is no shortage of crooks in any profession and there are certainly many in Buddhism. Most have been rooted out as sexual predators, financial predators or narcissistic sociopaths looking for fame. This is what brings this (video) to reality.
Being kind of close to many monks and nuns, we get to see how and who they really are and what they believe in and are trying to do in the world. I have also met others that are not monks or nuns, but ministers and lay scholars that are very interested in the teachings and right way to live and want to see that increase in the world.
Watching videos online I have come across some people that profess they are monks and that they are ‘self ordained’ I have been in close contact with monks and nuns of almost every sect of Buddhism and never heard of such a thing as ‘self ordained’.
Although in my studies of Buddhism, mostly Theravada, Mahayana, Chan/Zen and Vajrayana I never read nor heard of such a thing…
SO I went to my friends.. I am on social media and have over 200 monastics, scholars, authors, teachers and students of all forms of Buddhism as contacts there (Facebook and Linkedin were the two main sources)… I contacted about 150 individually and asked them all the same question ; “What is your opinion of monks/nuns being ‘self ordained’ is there such a thing in your knowledge?”
The interesting thing happened next.
Some pretty famous Buddhist teachers and scholars did answer (I will not put them on the spot...yet). Of the 120 odd people that answered me *(This was not a scientific poll, nor statistically valid),
-Almost 95% were completely against it, saying there is no such thing in their knowledge and only one or two mentioned that there may be some in other traditions, but they admittedly said they did not know so could not answer for all traditions.
-Only Western practitioners, who were also scholars, ministers and monks responded differently.
-Three respondents stated it was an interesting concept and depended on intent of the person saying they were self ordained.
- Two others did mention Tendai traditions (or as one said ‘Pretendai’, which I found in an article sometime later) it may be possible.
-Only one other said it was a good idea and that he would be ‘on board’... He was a westerner that had studied Buddhism but not ordained.
-Four of them replied with ‘no comment’.
Now that brought in a whole slew of other questions for me…
Who is it that says they are self ordained and why?
What if any is the vetting process for someone that says they are ordained and how do we improve that?
And finally, if it is a bad thing, how is it bad and how do we stop it?
First, let's go over what being ordained even means.
A (real) monk starts off as a Samanera taking a small set of precepts (vows), shaving their heads and taking robes and renouncing regular life. This then can change when a monk becomes a Bikku/Bikkshu or fully ordained. This only happens after they are mature enough and at least 20 years old. This is where they take over 200 vows and really commit to following the path of a monk. These ceremonies require very particular practices and an attendance of 10 or more masters to verify and acknowledge the process.
The word ordained comes from the idea to bring to order, become part of an order by agreement of the order itself. You cannot, by definition, be self ordained. It would be like calling yourself a doctor without ever going to school or taking any board examination or licensing. This is why we even have licensing in every profession, from boxing to becoming a board certified zoologist… there is a vetting process and that is it.
I was fully ordained in 2006 as a Buddhist Minister (Yes, there is such a thing. We tend to become chaplains and the like) under the International Order of Buddhist Ministers and the Southern California Sangha Council. I have a preceptor and master, I was in a public ceremony with 3 masters and many other monks, and took on 10 precepts. It was better for me as I wanted to participate and help but many places I could not go or attend because I was a lay person. Also at the time I was married and did not want to give that up and live in the monastery full time.
Now, not to say there are not some brilliant people out there, very knowledgeable regarding Buddhist history, the Pali canon, or languages, but they are not monks/nuns. They have not been ordained and some do not even want to because of the limits of regular life that are placed on monks and nuns to keep them ‘in order’.
In the book, Dhammapada by Narada, one of the best translations I have read it states in the Appamada Vagga, This would be chapter 2, page 32. “ A fully ordained disciple of the Buddha is called a Bhikkhu. “Mendicant monk” (Mendicant means basically a beggar that lives off alms. Similar to a Bhikkhu as I have grown to know it, but a Bhikkhu (monk) is ordained.) may be suggested as the closest equivalent for “Bhikkhu”/ He is not a priest as he is no mediator between God and man. He has no vows for life. But he is bound by his rules which he takes of his own accord. He leads a life of voluntary poverty and celibacy. If he is unable to live the Holy Life, he can discard the robe at any time.”
I looked around for any examples I could find of either self enlightened or self ordained people. I could not find any that were now part of a traditional sangha (community) Some that did claim to be self ordained did hold seminars and workshops on the Dharma or Buddhist teachings. Most for a hefty fee…
I found only one book on the subject and ended up buying it. The title is “Buddhist Self-Ordination, a Dharma Strategy for the West” by Alexander Duncan. The book starts off about Allen Bennet, an English man that went to Sri Lanka and became ordained in Burma and started or at least greatly contributed to the introduction of Buddhism to the west with such people as Madame Helena Blavastky and Colonel Henry Olcott (USA). The book goes on to talk about Nalanda, the great Buddhist University which was sacked in 1197 by Muslims that took over parts of India at that time. Then the book does mention Mahasiddha which are Hindu and not really related to Buddhists at all except that in the Buddha’s time those were common. Finally it goes on to speak of Queen Srimala who took vows under the Buddha directly and was not ‘self ordained’. She was a beginning in the Bhikkhuni movement early in Buddhism. In the end, it basically just goes out and says “Buddha himself was self-ordained” which again is untrue, he was the beginning of the order and was never ordained, but accepted as the founder and teacher which others were ordained into. It was not until after the Brahmajala Sutra which outlines the precepts a monk or nun takes on to become part of the sangha. The Vinaya rules a monk or nun promises to follow are to keep harmony in the community of monastics as well as to keep them from taking advantage of the laity or their position in society.
The next pages are full of chants and vows and then goes on to discuss the Mahayana precepts and how out of date and contingent on history, culture and region. Although currently the Vinaya rules are being debated and being updated. That has little to do with the ordination process as you only take on those vows once you have been ordained. All in all it is a quick read, but in no way really discusses how one becomes ‘self ordained’ other than perhaps following the chants which is not much more than a good exercise and meditation.
The book does not argue for the idea of self ordination effectively, and I feel it could be really followed up on in another version or update.
I, myself, find it interesting but not practical. Being ordained puts you IN the sangha, as part of something other than just yourself. That is one of the ideas of Buddhism. To find good spiritual friends and practice with them. (Upaddha Sutta). I find it good to be a part of ‘the’ organization, even though I am not a full fledged monk, I can participate in most activities, ceremonies and pujas and have been able to really get into the nitty gritty of Buddhist activities world wide.
When I moved from California and away from ‘my’ sangha (Rosemead Buddhist Monastery) to Colorado I immediately started seeking other Buddhists to collaborate with. I called every center I could find. Most of them were up in the Boulder area and were Vajrayana, either Shambala, or other of the Tibetan variety. When I called, one of the first questions was what lineage was I.
Being a Chan style Buddhist we basically just go back to the Bodhidharma and leave it at that. I had been working with all sorts of Buddhists monks, nuns, abbots and other masters for almost 10 years and had never been asked that before.
Not that I found it good or bad, but started to see the usefulness of that. If someone claims they are ordained in a lineage, there is a vetting process. Usually of who your teacher was and his or her teacher and their sect or lineage. That brought me back to all those Kung Fu movies I watched as a kid. It was always a certain school and teacher that you would pronounce upon arrival… There were no ‘rogue’ Kung Fu masters that I knew of…
That was when I remembered a movie written by Bruce Lee and John Colburn called either ‘The Silent Flute’ or ‘Circle of Iron’. Now this is about martial arts and not Buddhism, but along the same vein and idea. The protagonist is not of any school and ‘comes from himself’. This is a Western take on Zen and a hip interpretation that allowed pretty much anything to pass as martial arts. It was a time of change that I think has ingrained in the Western mind as an accepted aspect of both Eastern philosophical ideals (Zen, Dao, etc…) and the influence of early Eastern philosophies as translated by Westerners in the late 50’s and throughout the 70’s. This would include, Ram Dass, Timothy Leary, Terrence McKenna, Alan Watts and even the Beatles.
So I don’t understand or have experience in self ordination. ' KP
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'Good question. The simplest answer is its not a good idea. The reason being is why would one want to? One can live like a monk. One can study like a minister. All that's cool. One can do what one likes on that level. But if one is to pass one's self off to others as an ordained monk, nun or minister, then one ought to ask why is one doing this? If I was to go to a monk or minister asking for spiritual advice or council then I'd want to be sure the person is qualified to do that. Who ordained, gave credentials, gave a degree and from where? Let's look at it this way. If you are sick, go to the hospital, need an operation, you'd want to know that your doctor is qualified to cut you open safely, or to prescribe appropriate medications. There are quacks in religion as well as medicine. Having gone through the process, I realize as a Buddhist I have a delusional nature. I felt I had a calling, but I could be very wrong. It is import, to use Christian terminology, not just to have a calling, but to be called, and not by a voice in my head (I worked 34 years in a mental hospital and I could tell you stories of patients who thought they were doing God's well my having sex with their children, or killing someone as they were of the devil). I went through interviews, classes, training, wrote a thesis (mine was on a Jodo Shinshu look at A.A. and their Twelve Step Program). Even now I still go through training and classes here, and we're reminded that we must always be students, not pass ourselves off as teachers that others must obey. I guess that's enough of an answer! FB
'I've seen enough religious fraud to last me several lifetimes! And it may not be fraud. The person could be really sincere. That's hard to question or challenge. But sincerity doesn't cut it. I've met a number of murderers, rapists, pedophiles who were quite sincere. I suppose it comes down to that if the fruits are good, then you're lucky, but be aware that if the fruits turn sour then don't justify it that it must be you with the problem. Look to the grower instead. The one thing that Buddha had going for him was telling everyone to test out his teachings for themselves, question them, and if they're wrong, tell the Buddha to move along! See the Kalama Sutta.' FB (continued)
For instance, in the Zen tradition (the tradition I'm working from), great stock is placed in the idea of an unbroken line of teacher to student from the Buddha to the present (actually, multiple unbroken lines/lineages representing different schools). However, in reality, historical records cast doubt that the lines were continuous and unbroken, with some links of the chains most likely fabricated after the fact. And even within those lines, there are instances of self-ordained and/or self-transmitted folks continuing the tradition from one generation to the next.
Regarding my own thoughts on such matters, I suppose that - as with all things - context is an important factor. What's the background and context of your project and inquiry? FH
'in Buddhism, this is not legal. there is unbroken tradition which the transmission of precepts must be taken from a teacher, we won't recognize the ordination if it is send ordained. Amitabha!
Without going through an organization, there's no telling what any requirements are. So it's like a step less than that I ternet church that ordains you just for sending your name and address. Also, without going through a registered organization, i dont think you have the right to perform ministerial activities like marriages and such for legal purposes' NM
'I did not know there were self ordained monastics, but if that means no ordaining body, no guidance, just simply self-appointment, I would not be in favor of that. GC
'Not a good idea' JS
'haven't heard of it...' KB
i don't agree with self ordination at this time' MT
'Hey there, well I'm above ground so cant complain. Wow, so I strongly feel that the monastic traditions are part of the practice of buddhism. They are not absolute but they do represent long cultural identity and tradition. If someone wants to be a part of it they must embrace that tradition and live by the practice of that linage. I am emmediatly and deeply sceptical of an individual who declares on their own , that they have the right to declare themself as a monk, nun or preist in the buddhist traditions without having having the seal from that tradition. All people can practice in any way suitable to their life. And lay people all over the world do just that. But it's another thing to declair that you are self ordained. Interestingly this problem exists in Thailand and laos where you have these "witchdoctor" monks who are not formal monks but bear the semblance of monks but practice all form of black magik and witchcraft. They are not all back jungle charlatines either, some fly in jets and own vast estates. It's illegal in Japan to declair yourself a monk without documentation of your lineage, its common in china. And unfortunately more common here in the usa. There may be exceptions but I have yet to meet someone who would qualify. Actually it's very interesting becouse someone I have known for years whom claimed ordination actualy , it turns out has none. For years he has misrepresented himself. When that came to light I saw him who he really was and many of my frusterating moments with him made sense. So to this day I have not met someone who claims self ordination to be authentic. Now , that's not to say they are a bad person.' DU
'ello! I'm well, thank you for the thought. MHO is that sel-ordained monastics are like a tree without roots. Traditionally the ordination must be legitimately in accord with the leadership of an Order/Nikaya/Sangha and the ordination must be morally acclaimed by the entire Sangha.
A self-ordained monk can not carry teaching out. He may observe the Vinaya for himself, nothing wrong with that. But he can not form a Sangha in the traditional manner.
Thank you for asking..' KZ
'Es lo que se conoce como patricabudha, no es muy habitual, pero ay que respetar si existen.
Estos practicantes a menudo no necesitan guía, pues de alguna forma recuerda las prácticas de su vida pasada y sigue continuándolas en esta, probablemente su camino sea más difícil que el de otros practicantes que si obraron por seguir a un maestro, un “guia“. ' MRF
'Sean, of utmost importance is the practitioners intentions. They must be as pure as possible, with the good thoughts to study, contemplate, practise & share Dharma to the best of their abilities.
It's a big query & controversial, especially with the conservative thinkers. So for now I'll leave it short & sweet, tho I'll mention that it is very important to have good teachers, guide & spiritual friends too. ' AW
It's a big query & controversial, especially with the conservative thinkers. So for now I'll leave it short & sweet, tho I'll mention that it is very important to have good teachers, guide & spiritual friends too. ' AW
'i dont know anything about that , its not much a part of theravada where for the most part there is a clear distinction between lay and ordained, in other traditions and in the western mish mash you have the ability for stuff like that to be more common place' BJ
'I immediately want to know more about thier experience' DS
'I’m not opposed, but I’m not sure I would trust someone who was self-ordained unless I had other reasons to trust them' ES
'I think it's an insult to the entire Tradition all the way back to the Buddha I find this new age crap the ultimate In sult !!!!' TPT
'As a Theravada buddhist with alignment to the Pali Canon, I would not find that supported according to the teachings of The Buddha and the traditions. It’s not a good idea because of risks of corruption. There’s no accountability. In addition, what the requirements of ordination. Ordination is a formal recognition associated with achievements and guidelines. ' SL
'Technically, it is not even possible, since ordination is an official thing done by an official organization.' L
'I've never heard of any monastic of any tradition ordaining themselves. In Tibetan tradition there is a lineage that needs to be preserved to maintain ordination, so self-ordination sounds kind of nonsensical to me, but i have no idea what is meant by it.' AW
' I’ve never come across any one who has been personally. But the practice of self-enlightenment without the guidance of a teacher is a foreign concept to me. I feel learning is a life-long process.' TF
'Self ordained is without value.' 'It’s like a doctor who gives himself a medical license' AZ
'Self-ordination contradicts the purpose of ordination. From the perspective of organized religion, self-ordinations have no value, and from a purely spiritual perspective, self-ordinations make no sense. But I'm not sure if your question tries to answer more if someone can choose to live as a monk without belonging to an official religion (including Buddhism)? You can, but this has nothing to do with ordination. ' MD
'No comment...' MB
' The answer could lead to an interesting days' discussion. The sim ple answer off the top of my head) is NO.
Somplece I hace a copy of a sutra from Tripitaka, titled Karma of Questions. have to find it...
Your question, I am afraid, is in a category of What is Reality?' YR
' I'm against it entirely. One needs a preceptor for Bhikkhu and Samanera ordination. You learn a lot from being around the Ajahn. If one wants to live a monastic life on their own, then they should keep the eight precepts.' ALF
' “No wisdom, because the self is in charge. When the ordination is done in its 2,500 year old traditional way, the self is subdued and the Sangha and the Vinaya is in charge. Self-ordained only leads to confusion, not liberation.”' HS
'Call me old school, but I don't agree with the concept of self ordained. There are too many Sanghas needing new students and practitioners. We all belong to a lineage that is traceable to the Buddha, self ordained's do not, also what about ministering in the true dharma? Self ordained's may only offer their own interpretations and bias, and not the Buddhadharma...' DR
'It’s not practical, sir. Becoming a monk is itself a difficult decision and practicing alone is a very deep task. That’s why Buddha asked us to stay under a qualified teacher as a novice and even 10 years under his observation after becoming a fully ordained monk.' LC
'self-ordination occurs to me as a contradiction in terms.' PE
'i really have no opinion. i do not know how a person can self-ordain. but perhaps this is ok. it really depends on the person's intention.' JHF
'It is not proper no mattet how you look at it. I was fully ordained and still keep a lot of rules privately but I am not a monk anymore, but it doesn't reduce the sincerity. One can be a real scholar or hobbiest but call it what it really is. If not it diminishes others legimate efforts.' DP
'The purpose of monastic vows is surrender to a community and a code of conduct. Be a hermit if you want to live like a monk but don't want to submit to others.' JF
'Ordination requires training and wisdom passed down from teacher to student, it's about transcending the student's blind spots, this cannot be realized without a teacher. There are rare exceptions, so for the majority of the population it's not possible.' WD
' I have mixed feelings about that topic. The mixed feelings arise from the fact that I have been traditionally trained, first as a Theravadin monk in Thailand, then as a Pure Land monk and teacher, then about 15 years ago as a Sōto Zen monk. All of which led to ordination. That having been said, I also have to admit that in Japan if you simply call yourself a Tendai teacher, for example, everyone considers you a Tendai teacher whether you were actually formally trained or not. This is not true in the West. A few years ago I was in England and ordained Tendai monks went absolutely crazy because a teacher referred to himself as a Tendai monk. He was ordained by a sect the English Tendai organization did not officially recognize. It ruined that man's career as a Buddhist teacher. I thought the man was very wise and a good teacher, but my opinion did not matter to the powers that be. There is a tendency in the West to categorize people so, they want a box they can put you in.
Have said all that, I'm going to say this, the Buddha gave a way out, several in fact, to deal with this very issue. In the Dhammapada 14.2, the Buddha is made to say, "Though dressed in gay and festive clothes, if he practices an even mind, if his passions are subdued, if his senses are controlled, if he is confirmed in the four Paths, if he permanently observes conduct that is chaste and pure, that person is a recluse (samana), he is an ariya (brāhmana), he is a Bhikkhu." In the Bodhipakkhiya Dipani (Heritage of the Sāsanā), Ledi Sayadaw interprets this passage to mean anyone who practices in perfect conformity with the Dhamma, and lives with pour mind and body, can be called a samana or Bhikkhu even though he wears the clothes of a layman. One is a samana (usually taken to be a fully ordained reclusive monk and the origin of the word 'shaman') even if they are a upasaka/upasika, i.e., a lay Buddhist. He further recommends that such a person take permanent attha-sila vows. This makes one "not quite a monk and not quite a lay person." This is actually the status of a Zen monk. It is also the status of an Anagarika (Homeless One) in Theravada. I can accept this path and I even recommend it for my students who wish to be ordained through Hongaku Jōdo and practice a variation of monasticism while living in the community at home. It's a better option then sequestering one's self from the society in which we live. SM
'I don't believe in self-ordained Buddhist monks, nuns or ministers because I think they should represent a certain lineage and therefore be appointed by that lineage. Having said that I see nothing wrong with someone being a self-professed yogi or Buddhist practitioner who upholds the vows of someone who is ordained and wishes to teach others.' MS
'There is no option for "self ordained " SJB
' no such thing' SA
' I’m all in favour of those that give the gift of dharma to others. As I am sure you know, the Buddha said that there is no greater gift. However, I think it is unnecessary and vain to give oneself a rank or title, or to add pseudo-religious paraphernalia.' DNH
'no such thoing' JS
Here are some of the notable responses I received. I am only using initials to ensure privacy.
The question: 'What is your opinion/input on 'Self Ordained' Buddhist Monks/Nuns/Ministers?
I contacted 96 FB friends. 50 linkedin contacts and seven phone or in person interviews.
'Not Legitimate' DL
'I don't believe one should self ordain' JZ
' All is well. I know there is some mild distaste in parts of the Buddhist world concerning self-ordained clergy. I personally don't have an issue with it, as pratyekabuddhas are a thing.' CM
'Good idea, Bodhisattva in action' AL
'Self ordained monks technically are hermits living a monkish lifestyle. They are are sincerely and genuinely doing their spiritual thing good luck to them.' ND
'It's not valid. I've come across this before and it's always seemed like an ego trip and a way to avoid the hard work of ordaining and training within a long-standing tradition." HS
'imply put, there is no such thing as self-ordination in Buddhism. By definition it requires a preceptor. I don't know about other traditions, of course.' MM
'I can only speak that in the Soto Zen tradition that I practice in, ordination is a leaving home ceremony performed by another priest/monk and it is about the lineage. I love the process as I also understand home-leaving to be part of leaving our conditioning and entering a path of the ancestors. It is entering the ordained sangha of monks and nuns.
'Well that's certainly a loaded simple question! 
XRS
' My impression would be its like getting a degree from an unaccredited university. Doesn't really mean much of anything, except whatever it personally means to the person who declares themselves such.
